Sexism in T* Fiction

[Bryony Marsh]

(A preachy rant follows... because I'm good at those.)

It’s said that cis girl who spends the weekend painting her kitchen gets the job done in old, scruffy clothes, while a transvestite does the job in her finest frills.

(Maybe that’s a good test, to find out once and for all if your T* ness manifests as a kink, or more of a lifestyle thing.)

I guess there’s nothing wrong with taking an ordinary task or moment in your life and squeezing more fun out of it. It’s something that I explored in that snippet, ‘Schooled’ where George, a teacher, decided to do his marking as Jessica… but so many of our transgender tropes are sexist. How about the idea that being feminised in an office situation inevitably means the central character has to become a secretary?

If you want to dress as a maid because there’s cleaning to be done, go for it… except… what message does that send to your wife? I see this as women’s work.

We’re told by the people with high foreheads that the reason MTF crossdressing is socially unacceptable while FTM tomboys aren’t doing anything wrong is because MTF represents a “surrendering” of power.

Are these two factors inevitably linked? No: the submissives are just a subset of the TG readership – although perhaps a large proportion. Fictionmania has become a place where it sometimes seems like every other story is about a sissy; where men who become women (or some approximation thereof) are ridiculously promiscuous; where they’re suddenly driven by the urge to “worship” penises.

Also, look at how many transformees become bimbos. And how many become more intelligent as a woman? Almost none.

Others in the transgender sphere dismiss women as inferior, too: I’ve read pieces by FTM transsexuals who have described how much more “decisive” or “effective” they became, once they started on male hormones. In fiction, reluctant victims of a feminisation regime that includes hormone treatment commonly become weepy and weak-willed. Is this how we see women?

I suppose that a person like me (which is to say, a person with an interest in crossing the gender divide via fiction) is always going to have simplistic opinions on this. “The grass is always greener on the other side” – but that doesn’t stop me getting really fed up with the formulaic nature of so much T* fiction. (Fictionmania: 29,650 entries... 500 stories.)

Maybe I just read the wrong sites, or maybe it’s because I’m reading the free stuff. As if our job wasn’t difficult enough already, I think we need to get out there and write TG fiction that’s still fun, and still sexy… but that doesn’t make a ridiculous caricature of the thing that we claim to aspire to.

[lizzybennet]

I couldn't agree more. Well said that woman.

Do we need a new site with a stronger editorial policy?

[Anna]

When I first started out visiting trans sites on the internet I got battered because I liked football and a proper woman doesn't like football. It's as if there is a section of our community that have an idea of the perfect woman (stepford wife) that has nothing to do with real women at all. The media seem to prefer this group over those that just get on with being normal so that's how we are all seen. I try and make a point that anyone not being punished in my stories improves as a woman, normally just by becoming more confident in themselves.

[Chrissy]

I used to work alongside a woman who was a very keen football fan and I think it's safe to say she's not the only one in the country. The female gender is also well represented among the spectators at rugby matches. I wonder what the people who were knocking you would make of that, Anna?

[Sam]

I also agree most of the stories you read tend to turn the male into a subservient sissy to be dominated by all and sundry.

Very few authors treat a male cross dresser with respect, dignity and acceptance from cis girls.
Female cross dressers do so daily and not a word is said against them.

This all extends from societies preconceived opinions that Men should be men and Woman should be Woman and keep to what little box or circle they should fit in.

Well thankfully their has been a revolution from the early 60`s where these outdated views are slowly changing.

I have never hidden that I am male with a softer side that openly shows emotion and does so very regularly, my mum encouraged this.

I also love to cross dress in clothing of the other gender. In truth both genders cross dress.
WE both were underwear, shoes , pants - both kinds trousers and panties, also sorts of clothing. Just one gender is softer, with more styles, colors, fabrics and so on.

I do not believe I am trapped in the wrong body, this I feel would have shown years ago, just I enjoy dressing as a woman.

I have worked with woman more than men through out my working life and I am aware I have feminine mannerisms, this does not worry me, just my wife gives me grieve at times for this.

For myself, I find cross dressing helps me more relaxed and clams me down and helps stress to easy; I also notice a difference between the amount of clothing I have on changes how I feel, with the more I have on the more I feel contended and relaxed.

I prefer to wear stockings and suspender belts rather than tights, possible from my mum as tights were coming into prominence in my early years. They make me feel different when I wear them, and not in a sexual way, more empowered to believe in myself.

When I write I will not have any character forced - well Olive was kinda forced to teach a lesson - and hope to include the ethos of this site to be thoughtful and tasteful transgender theme stories and to be well written - the reason Christina created the site and invited us along as we all feel the same.

I am not sure why I dress just I do and "she" is as much a part of me as the "he".

[jessica]

In my opinion, it's both sexism and self-loathing. While playing armchair psychologist is likely a bad idea, I would hazard a guess that a lot of the authors hate that they like feminine things/have feminine tendencies and have absorbed the daily messages in our society that feminine = weak. They then turn that loathing outward onto their characters, either through sissy stories or humiliation or femdom themes. Sort of "I hate this part of me so everyone else must." I've tried to make my MTF characters more well-rounded and more at peace with themselves and hope I have. They're the same neurotic, hyperverbal people no matter which side of the fence they're on :-)

One could argue that some of the other parts of these stories are just silly wishful thinking. The characters get dressed up to do mundane tasks because the author can't. It's reimagining yourself as an ideal. Bryony, is that part of what you mean by kink vs lifestyle?

[kristraverse]

I couldn't agree with this thread more, and I think that those who are sick of the formulatic stories presented by places like FM have been looking for a place. Hopefully this is it.

When I started my story I wanted nothing to do with that type of story. I have made it known that Alexa still enjoys her sports but has the softer side. The only time Alexa has dressed up to perform any type of task grew from a scene where her partner started. Cleaning was not done with maids outfits but a more normal, some may stereotypical, dress of tooled up jeans, white trainers and the work shirt tied at the waist with a bandana around their hair.

Until there are more writers producing the things I have read here, there will be no change. I get very annoyed with the submissive husband bit. That is fetish not TG fiction

[Chrissy]

I think Jessica has summed it up very well indeed. This is a topic Liz and I have discussed before, albeit not in any great detail, and was a major contributory factor in the setting up of this forum. In her post above, Liz mentions the possibility of an entirely new site; what are members' thoughts on that?

[rebeccajane]

This is a very good topic, one that I've witnessed not only in the fiction community but in the local trans community here. I've always loathed the fiction that depict the M2F as weak willed, or subservient, or the whole trope that is expressed in a vast majority of the fiction we see... Maybe for me is I've always had very strong female role models in my life, my mother being the main one. While yes, she was a Medical staff secretary and worked for all the residents in the hospital back home, there was no doubt that she deserved and demanded respect. If one of the Doctors got a little too 'big for his britches' Mom would always tactfully remind him who really needed who in their working relationship.

Bryony as far as the teacher doing their grading enfemme, for me (from before) whenever I had a chance to let Rebecca out doing menial tasks it was more because I felt more relaxed with less stress that I normally felt during my daily existence. No I didn't clean in a maids costume, but soft comfy tee shirt and cotton shorts, it was what I was most comfortable.

Anna... Your experience in the online world only mirrors what I had experienced in the trans community. I've actually been ostracized by a large majority of the local trans community because I don't try to fit into the stereotype that they 'picture' a woman should behave. I'm okay leaving the house without makeup only wearing a tee, shorts and flip-flops, so I'm not as 'trans' as them... Because I didn't walk away from a high paying mechanic job and do worthless crap like cleaning houses, I'm not feminine enough, don't even get me started about how I was treated when I started working on the side as a bouncer at a local LGBT bar. Throughout my transition I've found that the most accepting group for me has been straight ciswomen.

The part about you saying the the F2M being more 'descisive' is an over exaggeration of what really happened to me. For me before the HRT started I had a lot of testosterone fed aggression, while I was more assertive I was also a lot more hot headed and my decisions were rushed and not well thought out. The difference though is after starting HRT the aggression has lessened a LOT, but I'm not submissive by any stretch of the imagination. I'm laid back, and without the rush to make a decisions NOW at this very second. Which means the decisions I make are much more thought out and effective now.

I've got more thoughts but my break from class is over, I'll continue later.

Becca

[lizzybennet]

Jul 25, 2017 12:24:38 GMT jessica said:

In my opinion, it's both sexism and self-loathing. While playing armchair psychologist is likely a bad idea, I would hazard a guess that a lot of the authors hate that they like feminine things/have feminine tendencies and have absorbed the daily messages in our society that feminine = weak. They then turn that loathing outward onto their characters, either through sissy stories or humiliation or femdom themes. Sort of "I hate this part of me so everyone else must." I've tried to make my MTF characters more well-rounded and more at peace with themselves and hope I have. They're the same neurotic, hyperverbal people no matter which side of the fence they're on :-)

One could argue that some of the other parts of these stories are just silly wishful thinking. The characters get dressed up to do mundane tasks because the author can't. It's reimagining yourself as an ideal. Bryony, is that part of what you mean by kink vs lifestyle?

Ultimatly, as Jess and I have discussed, it comes down to the view that female is 'other' and that being male is 'natural'. As such to want to deviate from maleness somehow makes you unatural.

It is of course nonsense biologically speaking, but it is the way the mainstream of our society sees it.

I also think it's interesting how under represented F2M transgender people are on theses sites. I wonder if anyone knows if there are any equivilant sites?
Save

[lizzybennet]

Jul 25, 2017 15:16:01 GMT Chrissy said:

I think Jessica has summed it up very well indeed. This is a topic Liz and I have discussed before, albeit not in any great detail, and was a major contributory factor in the setting up of this forum. In her post above, Liz mentions the possibility of an entirely new site; what are members' thoughts on that?

The main problem, pratically speaking, would be that it would require a lot of work. Checking each story to make sure the contact fits editorial policy and community standards.

Possibly it would work as a site where writers applied to join, were vetted in some way, and then became members able to post what stories they wanted to.
Save

[Debbie V]

I wrote a line in one of my stories that I'm standing by 100%: 'A skirt is a symbol of strength'. I've read forced-fem stories in the past and while they can be titillating, they always leave a bad taste in your mouth at the end of it. The protagonist inevitably ends up treated as a possession, as less than human... The implication being that this is what happens when you stop being a man and stop being a woman, when in fact when that happens, you are empowered. And last time I checked, things like football could be enjoyed by all genders.

[Sam]

Love the idea of a new site and agree with Liz the issues she has listed would create a lot of work, which if practicable to do so I am sure all of us here would be willing to give time for this. Although we would have to have some system of vetting and refusal based on more than one persons decision.

The problem would be to get a new site noticed as unfortunately we are all creatures of habit and tend to return to places we know are familiar with.

A skirt is a symbol of strength I like that debs as it truly is.

[Bryony Marsh]

Jul 25, 2017 16:56:56 GMT lizzybennet said:

The main problem, pratically speaking, would be that it would require a lot of work. Checking each story to make sure the contact fits editorial policy and community standards.

Possibly it would work as a site where writers applied to join, were vetted in some way, and then became members able to post what stories they wanted to.
Save

First of all, thanks so much to everyone for responding to my thread. I’m delighted to see that you feel (more or less) the same way. I've learned a lot from your replies, too.

Here’s the thing about making a new ‘splinter site’ that hosts stories of the kind that it appears we’re interested in: it’s a heck of a lot of work. Lizzy is right – of course. And we’re not a hivemind: we have our own opinions as to what constitutes great TG literature.

I recommend that we don’t attempt to create a rival site, and host stories. All we need to do is:

1. Recommend stories to each other. That way, I get to read things that are endorsed by the girls that I respect, and who I know understand what I like. We already have a part of the forum for story recommendations.
   
2. Give feedback to the authors who write stories that we like. That way, we encourage more stories of the more erudite kind.
3. Continue to discuss the story ideas that we have, here.
4. Publish (or sell) more stories of the kind that we think ought to represent the genre.

That’s it! Nothing complicated. I recognise that we are a self-selected and therefore biased group, but isn't every lobbying group biased? And if people don’t like our slant on things, there’s a whole wide Internet out there, right?

Bx

[Chrissy]

Alternatively, pile everything you've got onto my site - I'm desperate for the attention